Managers plan out promotion timeframes far in advance. Mini-Microsoft, Mini-Microsoft, lean-and-mean! It is possible to get promoted out of a desire to be promoted. Over the years, we have acted as a preferred talent acquisition partner to. There certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of people wanting in. Their self criticism spurs them to improve. A great internal tool to help you sync your self perception with those around you is available internally at http://hrweb/US/CareerDev/folder/ms360process.htm. Look closely, and you'll probably find that this person is working symbiotically with someone else who masters those skills while lacking others.YES, there are people who've been promoted because they've simply "been there" for a long time. "Sad but true. -- Business Transformation Executive with demonstrated experience in managing and implementing large transformation programs through all levels of the organization in order to build growth, grab new market opportunities or reduce costs.<br><br>- Building on Solid experience in Functional roles (Sales, Marketing, Delivery Operations) to drive those programs <br>- Sales Oriented Business . If he thought you were trouble already, though, telling him you are thinking about leaving is like asking for a ticket out of there.7. It's not enough that you do a good job for your own assignments beyond L62 but what matters is how many others you enable to do as good job as you can do and achieve similar outcomes by influencing them. Then you're on the path to higher levels. I think it's safe to say that I "own" the group of people under L63 in my group, but I usually take that as an opportunity for mentorship as opposed to an opportunity to poach someone else's cool project. If you can learn to do this you become incredibly valuable.5. Successful people looooove to expound upon the secret to their success. Continuously revisit those and discuss with your manager. at This is the multiplier effect, or scope of influence that is often mentioned. +1 on the level balancing difference in subs.As someone who has transferred employees to/from corp/sub both directions and has promoted a bunch of folk, the corp level for a role is 2 numbers higher than the equivalent sub one. As for my own history, successful strategies have followed 3 major buckets:From 59 --> 62 (I started as a 10 in the old system) I simply kicked ass and took no prisoners. L68 is partner, or you may see GM. But on balance mgrs at MS get things right a lot more often than they get them wrong or we wouldnt be one of the most highly capitalized companies in the history of biz. Thats why L64->L65 transition is so hard. The average entry-level engineer or program manager will have a total compensation of $125,665. Mine is inside sales Azure. I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. For example, some are principal individual contributors that just stayed for too long in a group and became essential, but now want to move on and cannot do that, either because their skills are obsolete or because they simply cannot go to a new startup team at such high level without any management responsibility, and they are untested managers. How bad is this? When you take on the toughest problems that risk the product and make that problem go away, they are happy. Woow. Incompetent people tend to significantly overstate their performance, and significantly understate that of their co-workers. It's a struggle even to get a solid Level 59 promoted to 60 because of budget and under-levelling of devs in 60-61 range. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. )Those are only 3 of many 'soft skills' that will hold most people, even brilliant people, back.Has every level X mastered these skills? But that's kind of the point -- simplify your approach. Chairman of the Board, Microsoft Corporation. Normally this is acceptable but right now i smell lawsuit. for L63? Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Not giving quite as snide a response as the previous posterAsk your management. Take responsibility for defining the component in front of you -- is it really the right thing for the product/team? . Outside of those two situations, I have never asked for a promotion. ALWAYS ask for a promotion. You go along with a good boss/employee relationship then all of a sudden, it's like you killed his first born. Also, go mine some of Dr. Brechner's Hard Code columns. Your boss is the way to your promotion no matter where, what and when. Saturday, November 15, 2008. Great post! Are you ok with what you hear? If you're off-path, you can turn it around. "Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers"? SoI'll repeat it again. I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. Judson Althoff. In my co-workers case, they overloaded him with work and then documented anything that fell through the cracks until they had enough to get rid of him.I'm sure HR throttles managers when this is going on. Will there be room on your team? When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. I take a creative approach to accelerating business transformation as a . The Senior Director provides leadership, establishes operational objectives, policies, procedures and works plans and oversee the program to ensure maximum profitability through efficient service delivery, effective client management, and strategic allocation of resources. "Shock and awe awaits" is correct. I just want to grow, and I am aware that it does not translate to a promotion always. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. sheesh, "We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed. I only wish the internal MyMicrosoft blog had posts that were this valuable and insightful. At this point many people will ask how can I influence others if Im not their manager? Levels are different outside the US. Copyright 2008-2023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. This is obviously difficult to manage. It can be a really discouraging time in your career, but if you can get past it youre headed for another amazing growth curve like the one that got you to level 62! Find out if you have a positive trajectory in the stack ranking. Here are some thoughts from a L62-er who truly wants to accept whats keeping me from getting to 63 and work on it. They want you to succeed, they want the team to succeed. If you can't ever figure it out, and if you can't become a "favorite underling", then it's time to find a different group with people you can better relate-to. All of my peers are SDE II's, so L61-L62.The advice is simple:First, NAIL the fundamentals. What's worse is the noise this creates. >> Grammar nitpicking is fine when it's accurate.Wow, those sic[s] really are all [sic]s, and you went out of your way to refute them with invalid proofs and an assumed air of infallibility.Obviously you are a manager of HR managers soon to be promoted to GM. you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. Being irreplaceble is bad because you spend more times on coding/fixing bugs and there is less time to work on your visibility. The estimated additional pay is $257,304 per year. He/she and you should know exactly what you need to do to get to the next level. If you have potential and luck then you can achieve promotion velocity of one level every 18 months.Finally, heres my advice for who aspire for L62->L63 jump: Look around. If you dont know what exactly an L63 is, how are you able to make promotion discussions in the review meetings?Managers become so defensive when asked what we should be doing to advance. Promotion to 63 happened to me 2 years ago when I helped ship Office 2007. The estimated total pay for a Senior Director at Microsoft is $500,742 per year. Oh, please. I haven't talked to anyone internally that has anything good to say about it. What is our competition doing? And how do you represent yourself as a leader and influencer when you are in a room with 6 other people vying for the exact same thing? That is one aspect where they are forced to build fake relationships with directors and GMs to get promoted and unfortunately those who maintain good relatiship with them get promoted. Continue to do so until you've slapped yourself silly to the point that you're not complaining about how other folks must just be connected or political or adept at the finer art of buttock tongue massage. right?). Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". Any idea on when is this going to change? They are 100% star material. I think it's important to be very up-front andto use a clichetransparents with your manager regarding your next steps and prospects for promotion. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. At this point, the financial crisis and everything, wouldnt it be more interesting to try and predict what KT and Steve will do once they recieve the rest of year forecast mid december? I have seen people turn it around. Of course I ensure my manager and skip-level are aware of my contribution as a mentor, but I figure that as long as I'm in front of the wave, the best way for me to advance is to move the wave forward. I came from .NET (no longer there), and there were plenty of Senior IC PMs and Devs.Are you in Test, Marketing or Documentation? One of the interesting things about the level structure that I find interesting is that you are always expected to perform higher than your level. And your manager will not hate you for thinking about switching -- if you are a great employee to begin with, he will just want to keep you around. The good thing in most teams here is that if you persist, you will get there. How do you get the right job/work that will make the impact. but I have to disagree with this statement.While it is true that it is difficult for managers to say what *exactly* an employee should do to get to the next level, it *should not* be impossible to list what experiences/qualities/results will qualify him to be a *strong* candidate for promotion to the next level.And this should not be that difficult - it is just a matter of syncing up with the peer leads, and dev manager, and discussing what their perception of an L63 is vs l62. If I ever do decide to come back to MSFT, I will do so as a level 68+ and nothing less. It took him at least two months to integrate. Great post! Let's connect and I will happily share more about my background and accomplishment and how I can contribute to the success of your organization. for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. To the guy you said:I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. Thanks.Sorry mini -- I meant the content of the comment I referenced, not the content of your original post (which I'm in violent agreement with). Let's apply that stick to cronyism and punishment based management practicies. an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). It's because you were playing catch-up to Apple, and playing Machiavellian games with the media companies instead of working on the issues that your customers were complaining about.Vista is still unreliable, unsecurable, and a massive pain in the ass to use on a daily basis. YES, there are people who are awful at all three and still succeed. Over 20 years of experience in professional services including, architecture, corporate real estate, and integrated facility management, operating at a global and regional level. But people who move often grow faster because of two things (in my opinion.) "Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. Microsoft Director level role - Level 66 - what should I expect from COMP sideYOE-15Current TC- 235k You've made 3 mistakes. If you're going into that comfort zone of complaining about politics and butt-kissing and favorites, do me this favor: hold your right palm up, nice and flat like you're about to be sworn in to testify in a trial, and now extend your right arm out nice and wide, and then quickly swing your right arm around the front of you in a nice arc that ends with the flat of your right hand quickly connecting to the left side of your face for a hard, resounding slap. * One final important thought that hasn't been mentioned here and that is very dear to my heart is one that is not only specific to 63 but also to 65+, 66+, and 67+, and it is about moving up when you are a female at MSFT. MS is a carrot and stick culture with some heavy emphasis on stick. Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. Your manager has to know that either you get promoted sometime soon or you will go and get promoted somewhere else. Is there much motivation to really fix Vista's perception problems?Machiavelli might note that intentionally leaving Vista's reputation in the toilet will make Windows 7 look all that much better when it comes out - allowing some of our VP's pride, ego's and bank balances to swell to truly epic proportions. i've been hearing this.. you know when you are about to cut a small feature and do balancing in your sprint/milestone essentially this is happening at VP level. Thrive on it! Boeing, Go to company page But if you think you should be promoted and your manager doesn't, you shouldn't sit and seethe -- you must understand what it will take. Then they start pinging the manager on why and putting pressure on them to do something, move them up or out. Skip-levels will not tolerate people who are not team players.Finally if your manager is new or at your level, the strategy is the same. Finally I got involved and had a one/one with the employee during which I asked him why do you continually insist on doing Y when your mgr asks you to do X? I nearly fell of my chair when he said because I want to get promoted and I know that to get promoted I need to do Y. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around? Here are some things from my perspective.1. When does that year start? Then do it.Yeah yeah, that's an oversimplification. I've been at the same level for 3.5 years (since I joined MSFT), and while I spent three of those in a group where almost noone at all got promoted (a group which has since essentially dissolved), I'm concerned that my level stagnation reflects poorly on me, even though I've been the major contributor on products that have earned 10x my total compensation package for MSFT. Own your brand. SAP, Go to company page Thanks. If youve capped out at Level 62 then MS is probably not a great fit for you. Maybe Steve Jobs' psychotic approach to managing by terror is not properly described in English as "junk yard dog mode" (standing up for what needs to be done vs. mind-numbing consensus wallowing). This past year I had what I thought was an outstanding year, was given a 20%, but not promoted to L63. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. One thing I learned early is that the manager who says "I fought for you, sorry" is really saying "I'm too weak to make the case." Same here. I'm a level 62 dev trying to get to 63. Maybe." Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. I think you should play some games while searching for you L63 promotions. Candidates should have a Ph.D. in Physics and a strong commitment to undergraduate education. Say B.In a perfect case, B will have 10 devs to transfer to A but when that happen B will be left with 5 testers and 2 PMs. I /like/ OneCare. I would lay some level of accountability with management as well, though. They had to be given outlandish levels so as to match their previous compensation. L66 would be Principal or Sr Director. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room.Well you know, don't go for them for advice! Do a great job and you are likely to revise their expectations for the following cycle. As for asking for promotions, I disagree that you must always be asking. I agree with some comments that level make no difference. Stop fighting which is where mapped. * Sell yourself: I know it sounds odd and contradictory. That is why to get to L65 a VP level person must know your work and be able to recall your name without help. Entry level (4,718) Associate (1,976) Mid-Senior level (40,085) The point here is that I have more than once seen folks that were very talented and super stars get bumped for someone less talented but more vocal. take the time to find a mentor that is a great fit for you and the issue you're working on. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.You're never competing with your manager. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. Leadership, for instance. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . May 2008: Gold Star. I know devs who got there without doing anything substantial but their manager was nice and there was no competition.In short, Level 63 to me is not important and I really dont respect 63s unless they I've interacted with them.Level 65+ is another story and are devs who have the stuff almost always.- Someone at Level 62. Its performance is compromised by your pandering to the RIAA and MPAA. While cash bonuses stay relatively stable as a percentage of salary over the course of a Microsoft employee's career, stock compensation can rise to nearly 20% of annual income at higher levels, according to the crowdsourced data. Wouldnt my manager get annoyed if I try to go over him to get myself know to VP? The "how" now has broader impact.
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